Overall I do think keeping quiet, even when it makes you uncomfortable is the way to go for three points of assymetry -1. Noise is clearly more disturbing than quiet, i.e. if I am being quiet it doesn't disturb your noise, but not vice versa. This is even more true in the case of talking - as our brains are pivoted to pay attention to words, it's a lot harder to ignore a person talking loudly as opposed to random car noise or dog barks. 2. At least to some people loud noises in general are stress-inducing, or even downright painful, I don't think anyone suffers like that from being quiet 3. Silence is harder to maintain than noise, and therefore it makes sense that social norms around it are strict, as it won't happen naturally.
But! Does that make you an asshole? I think not. the fact that this is your balcony. this means two thins 1. this is still part of your home, and it makes sense to have your own norms around noise in your own home. as long as you're not making noises that are beyond what your house is supposed to emit, (i.e neighborhood norms). 2. Balconies by definition are out in the open, you can't expect that much quiet. I assume your neighbor doesn't also expect children to not play outside, although they can be quite loud as well. So as long as you are A. not emitting volumes that are beyond the neighborhood norms or louder than a playing child, you are not the asshole
But! does it matter? at the end of the day good neighbors, and community in general, are very valuable. So it comes down to what is more important to you, those community (and from how you make it sound also family) relationships, or your outside work meetings.
I have a loud speaking voice. At a large professional services firm, I was given an office despite not being a partner. People would ask: “why has he been given an office?” And then they would meet me…
Sorry Mickey, I have to side with your wife and neighbor. Were I your neighbor, I'd be tempted to take out my guitar amp, aim it in your direction, turn it to 11, and then blast away during one of your meetings, hoping that this would get my point across.;)
I think you answered your question when you said "Yes, I can modulate my volume easier than my neighbor can unhear me". Then you want to justify that you are reasonable because the city is noisy anyway. Which does not cancel the fact that you can still modulate your volume easier. I started reading really outraged that she asked you that, but if you are that loud, maybe you could indeed lower your voice a bit. Note that this is still a compromise. You don't have to stop having your meetings. She'll have to deal with the fact that she won't have absolute silence even if she wanted to. But in this way, both of you end up a little displeased :) (both get what they wanted, albeit not exactly as wanted)
It’s not that you’re an asshole but, in terms of social ethics and public policy, quietness is the better value and the onus should be on noisemakers to justify their noise-making simply because noise is more intrusive than quiet — it makes a much larger demand on others and causes more net harm.
It is a major peeve of mine how permissive we are towards noise (I am in GHA and am mainly thinking of motorcycles, trucks, modified mufflers and leaf blowers here). An objective cost-benefit analysis would I am certain support much stronger limits and enforcement on noise.
The restaurant aspect of your story is important. If they have a norm of a loud and passionate place that’s great. It is a private space and may many flowers bloom (in private).
I think you are allowed to have your meetings outside. Perhaps wear EarPods and maybe even warn your neighbour that you will be on a meeting during such and such time.
The argument below that it’s peoples homes but an office doesnt fly anymore as so many people work from home.
The key is to be considerate and compromising. I have faith in you Mickey that you will find a middle ground. You are far from the asshole. But you’re still very loud!
I think being in a public space in a multicultural society means that one must be tolerant of other (notably minority cultures) instead expecting adherence to the dominant culture’s expectation. It’s one thing for a culture to exist in a restaurant, place of employment, or house and determine something as pervasive as volume level. It’s another for that standard to exist literally anywhere someone from a dominant culture could hear you. I think it speaks to a greater expectation that something was said to you (although maybe you’re cartoonishly loud). A tolerant culture requires people to put up with experiences they dislike or with which they are uncomfortable. While the same could be said to you, I think that the imposition is different. Talking is a pretty basic part of existence. I don’t think people realize how disheartening it can be to be told to shush, especially in public places. To some (not all), they are being told they are a public nuisance, an annoyance, and embarrassing to be seen with. Someone has to “make” (suggest) you follow the “rules”. I further think the notion of controlling the noise level in a public space is a deeper cultural assumption than just having a preferable noise level. I believe she imposed far more upon you than you did her. I further think viewing what some consider normal ranges of noise as harm is not universal and should not be taken as a given. Lastly, if you’re in a city, expecting silence sounds outlandish to me.
Besides culture, your description of passion and loudness sounds a lot like many individuals on the spectrum. I say this to highlight individual level differences beyond culture.
I think it might be both of you. If your neighbour expects silence from you, that’s her being an asshole. If you refuse to accommodate, that’s on you. Ideally the two of you could try to compromise: hey, not never but not always, what are times to avoid vs preference. I truly believe that two people can improve their condition by kindly working together, but it requires both!
I think a culture’s conception of private spaces vs. public spaces, emphasis on rights, and preference for negative rights vs. positive rights is interesting and confusing here. American culture seems to prize the negative-right-based norm of peace and quiet (as referenced in Xochitl Gonzalez’s Atlantic article) even in places open to the general public, like family restaurants. But restaurants are privately owned, so the owner has some discretion in setting the rules and picking the norms. Makes the response of “Please dear? For your information, the Supreme Court has roundly rejected prior restraint” to “Will you please lower your voices? This is a family restaurant” all the more hilarious and interesting.
Seems a bit of an edge situation and I tend to side with the quiet point of view generally. But if you are using a normal speaking voice, it seems fairly reasonable to conduct your work on your own balcony. I'd tend to limit it to between 10am-4pm on weekdays and you indicate it is only occasionally so it seems that the neighbour might well be considered to be unreasonable. It would seem to me perfectly acceptable to listen to music or say the cricket commentary (or perhaps baseball in north America) on your own deck and surely your Zoom conversations are no louder than if you were conversing with your wife. So keep it within reasonable bounds and tell them to go...
Michael, I am completely on your side. It would be easy to say it's because I, too, am NATURALLY LOUD, but I find your arguments about 'why should our regular volume always give way to the shushers in an open, urban environment?' very intriguing.
Especially because my wife and I have the same challenge! I am always speaking loudly, and she is always asking me to turn down my volume! I share your frustrations--and philosophical questions about this cultural dilemma! (Incidentally, my wife tells me she went to high school with you).
Overall I do think keeping quiet, even when it makes you uncomfortable is the way to go for three points of assymetry -1. Noise is clearly more disturbing than quiet, i.e. if I am being quiet it doesn't disturb your noise, but not vice versa. This is even more true in the case of talking - as our brains are pivoted to pay attention to words, it's a lot harder to ignore a person talking loudly as opposed to random car noise or dog barks. 2. At least to some people loud noises in general are stress-inducing, or even downright painful, I don't think anyone suffers like that from being quiet 3. Silence is harder to maintain than noise, and therefore it makes sense that social norms around it are strict, as it won't happen naturally.
But! Does that make you an asshole? I think not. the fact that this is your balcony. this means two thins 1. this is still part of your home, and it makes sense to have your own norms around noise in your own home. as long as you're not making noises that are beyond what your house is supposed to emit, (i.e neighborhood norms). 2. Balconies by definition are out in the open, you can't expect that much quiet. I assume your neighbor doesn't also expect children to not play outside, although they can be quite loud as well. So as long as you are A. not emitting volumes that are beyond the neighborhood norms or louder than a playing child, you are not the asshole
But! does it matter? at the end of the day good neighbors, and community in general, are very valuable. So it comes down to what is more important to you, those community (and from how you make it sound also family) relationships, or your outside work meetings.
I love this response!
Shhhhhhh!!!!! You’re yelling!! (Love, your wife)
Also: I win.
I have a loud speaking voice. At a large professional services firm, I was given an office despite not being a partner. People would ask: “why has he been given an office?” And then they would meet me…
Sorry Mickey, I have to side with your wife and neighbor. Were I your neighbor, I'd be tempted to take out my guitar amp, aim it in your direction, turn it to 11, and then blast away during one of your meetings, hoping that this would get my point across.;)
I think you answered your question when you said "Yes, I can modulate my volume easier than my neighbor can unhear me". Then you want to justify that you are reasonable because the city is noisy anyway. Which does not cancel the fact that you can still modulate your volume easier. I started reading really outraged that she asked you that, but if you are that loud, maybe you could indeed lower your voice a bit. Note that this is still a compromise. You don't have to stop having your meetings. She'll have to deal with the fact that she won't have absolute silence even if she wanted to. But in this way, both of you end up a little displeased :) (both get what they wanted, albeit not exactly as wanted)
It’s not that you’re an asshole but, in terms of social ethics and public policy, quietness is the better value and the onus should be on noisemakers to justify their noise-making simply because noise is more intrusive than quiet — it makes a much larger demand on others and causes more net harm.
It is a major peeve of mine how permissive we are towards noise (I am in GHA and am mainly thinking of motorcycles, trucks, modified mufflers and leaf blowers here). An objective cost-benefit analysis would I am certain support much stronger limits and enforcement on noise.
The restaurant aspect of your story is important. If they have a norm of a loud and passionate place that’s great. It is a private space and may many flowers bloom (in private).
I think you are allowed to have your meetings outside. Perhaps wear EarPods and maybe even warn your neighbour that you will be on a meeting during such and such time.
The argument below that it’s peoples homes but an office doesnt fly anymore as so many people work from home.
The key is to be considerate and compromising. I have faith in you Mickey that you will find a middle ground. You are far from the asshole. But you’re still very loud!
You and I know this best, Les!
It’s a suburb, people’s homes, not an office. Don’t foist your work life on others.
I live in downtown Toronto! But your point stands...
I think being in a public space in a multicultural society means that one must be tolerant of other (notably minority cultures) instead expecting adherence to the dominant culture’s expectation. It’s one thing for a culture to exist in a restaurant, place of employment, or house and determine something as pervasive as volume level. It’s another for that standard to exist literally anywhere someone from a dominant culture could hear you. I think it speaks to a greater expectation that something was said to you (although maybe you’re cartoonishly loud). A tolerant culture requires people to put up with experiences they dislike or with which they are uncomfortable. While the same could be said to you, I think that the imposition is different. Talking is a pretty basic part of existence. I don’t think people realize how disheartening it can be to be told to shush, especially in public places. To some (not all), they are being told they are a public nuisance, an annoyance, and embarrassing to be seen with. Someone has to “make” (suggest) you follow the “rules”. I further think the notion of controlling the noise level in a public space is a deeper cultural assumption than just having a preferable noise level. I believe she imposed far more upon you than you did her. I further think viewing what some consider normal ranges of noise as harm is not universal and should not be taken as a given. Lastly, if you’re in a city, expecting silence sounds outlandish to me.
Besides culture, your description of passion and loudness sounds a lot like many individuals on the spectrum. I say this to highlight individual level differences beyond culture.
I think it might be both of you. If your neighbour expects silence from you, that’s her being an asshole. If you refuse to accommodate, that’s on you. Ideally the two of you could try to compromise: hey, not never but not always, what are times to avoid vs preference. I truly believe that two people can improve their condition by kindly working together, but it requires both!
I think a culture’s conception of private spaces vs. public spaces, emphasis on rights, and preference for negative rights vs. positive rights is interesting and confusing here. American culture seems to prize the negative-right-based norm of peace and quiet (as referenced in Xochitl Gonzalez’s Atlantic article) even in places open to the general public, like family restaurants. But restaurants are privately owned, so the owner has some discretion in setting the rules and picking the norms. Makes the response of “Please dear? For your information, the Supreme Court has roundly rejected prior restraint” to “Will you please lower your voices? This is a family restaurant” all the more hilarious and interesting.
Are you telling me I missed a perfect opportunity for a Walter quote?! Beautiful!
Seems a bit of an edge situation and I tend to side with the quiet point of view generally. But if you are using a normal speaking voice, it seems fairly reasonable to conduct your work on your own balcony. I'd tend to limit it to between 10am-4pm on weekdays and you indicate it is only occasionally so it seems that the neighbour might well be considered to be unreasonable. It would seem to me perfectly acceptable to listen to music or say the cricket commentary (or perhaps baseball in north America) on your own deck and surely your Zoom conversations are no louder than if you were conversing with your wife. So keep it within reasonable bounds and tell them to go...
Michael, I am completely on your side. It would be easy to say it's because I, too, am NATURALLY LOUD, but I find your arguments about 'why should our regular volume always give way to the shushers in an open, urban environment?' very intriguing.
Especially because my wife and I have the same challenge! I am always speaking loudly, and she is always asking me to turn down my volume! I share your frustrations--and philosophical questions about this cultural dilemma! (Incidentally, my wife tells me she went to high school with you).
Who is your wife?
I’m the wife :)
Is this Donna P? Nice to see you here and thank you for reading! And you have my blessing to shush your husband any time you like! ;-)
https://open.substack.com/pub/drmcfillin/p/do-you-have-a-study-for-that?r=1kwszo&utm_medium=ios
I think you might appreciate this piece and its author
Yep, it’s Donna P. We are both fans of your articles, keep ‘em coming and I will certainly keep up the shushing 😉. Hope you’re doing well!
Cant say because..... unlike your neighbour, I have the advantage of a volume button always being present every time I listen to you Mickey!!!! 🙂
Everything’s a fucking travesty with you man!
Dude. I’m sorry. It was an accident.
I think it's waaaaaaay ruder to silence you in your own home. She needs to go inside. You're not having a rave.